[tight-squeeze]

I'd like to start this thread for sharing links and info on the emerging issues of fuel dilution -- growing concern for boaters. It's bad enough to pay the price; but to pay it and then get sub-standard fuel quality will become a huge problem in the months to come.

* Keeping Gas Fresh?
* "Hidden" ethanol in fuel?
* Using a stabilizer?
* Using other 'enhancements'
* Aircraft fuel?

I've read several articles about marinas "padding" fuel with ethanol -- which attracts moisture, and can be very bad.

I'm running V-Tec Evenrudes, which require "high-test" but seldom run the tanks dry. Fuel could be several months old in the tank.

Any experts or authorities here?

Thanks

Fred

[IslandTime]

Great topic Fred. I'm hoping Bill Lindsey of StarBrite jumps in here as they make some good products for dealing with this. Welcome back to the forum.

[StatRX67]

Originally Posted by tight-squeeze

I'd like to start this thread for sharing links and info on the emerging issues of fuel dilution -- growing concern for boaters. It's bad enough to pay the price; but to pay it and then get sub-standard fuel quality will become a huge problem in the months to come.

* Keeping Gas Fresh?
* "Hidden" ethanol in fuel?
* Using a stabilizer?
* Using other 'enhancements'
* Aircraft fuel?

I've read several articles about marinas "padding" fuel with ethanol -- which attracts moisture, and can be very bad.

I'm running V-Tec Evenrudes, which require "high-test" but seldom run the tanks dry. Fuel could be several months old in the tank.

Any experts or authorities here?

Thanks

Fred

I'm guessing that Florida like most if not all states has a network of county Department of Weights and Measures, so hopefully they're doing a sufficient enough job protecting the public from rampant "padding" of fuel with ethanol. Though like most government agencies efficiencies and effectiveness could always be a joke.

As far as keeping the tanks topped off, I'm no chemist. But I would guess that the gas doesn't sit too long since every time you use the boat it's getting mixed up pretty well with the new stuff.

Not too long ago up here in the Northeast a large convenience store chain that sells scads of fuel had fliers at the counters for boaters warning of the possibility of damage to the fuel systems and top-ends of boats equipped with older tanks with some kind of poly lining of something of the sort due to the effect of ethanol on the material.

As for the V-Tecs and the requirement for the use of high-test fuel, you may want to delve deeper into the absolute need to run higher test fuel in those engines. I don't profess to know a great deal about too many things, but one thing that I know for certain after spending 15 years in the machining and mechanical engineering industry (8 strictly with four stroke internal combustion engines) is that a great deal of the time people are scared into over-buying octane. It's all about pre-ignition. If your engine can get through the compression stroke without firing before the designated timing interval the octane of the fuel is adequate for the application. The only problem with marine engines versus say a auto/truck/MC, etc. is being able to tell if the pre-ignition (aka knocking/pinging) under load is occurring unless the problem is really bad.

One thing that is an absolute is that the higher the price of fuel goes the more likely some greedy dirtball is to try to squeeze even more profits out of selling fuel by "cutting" it with other additives or just flat-out selling lower octane fuels as high-test among any number of other scams.

[tight-squeeze]

Thanks for that response! Wow, we do have some knowledgable people on board don't we!

I run the V-Tek in my Honda S2000, and was warned by the Honda guy to heed the octane warnings. But then others said I shouldn't waste my money because regular was fine. I tested it and found lower mileage, less than acceptable performance, and a rather odd odor any time I got her up over 6,000 RPMs to kick in the V-Tek. Smelled like burning rags.

I took it to the Honda dealer thinking I had blown something, and he immediately siphoned some gas out -- ran it through some kind of device and said there's the problem -- bad gas. While it was "labeled" as 87, the device claimed it was 84. He said sometimes you'll get "high test" rated at 93, and it will test out at 90 or less. So he said to be aware of off-brand gas.

So, I'm not discounting the 'octane debate' ... just relating personal experience.

I'm concerned because the Tight Squeeze is now out of warranty, and the extended warranty on the Evenrude V-Teks doesn't cover 'bad gas' problems. I know those puppies are expensive to work on!

[tight-squeeze]

Originally Posted by StatRX67

I'm guessing that Florida like most if not all states has a network of county Department of Weights and Measures, so hopefully they're doing a sufficient enough job protecting the public from rampant "padding" of fuel with ethanol. Though like most government agencies efficiencies and effectiveness could always be a joke.

My son and I pulled into the Wal-Mart way out on Atlantic Blvd, Pompano, and filled up his Dodge 1500 pick-up. By the time we made it back to A-1A, it was jumping belching popping and smoking so badly, it wouldn't make it over 25 mph, and there was a Dodge dealer so we pulled in. We explained the problem and the head mechanic opened the fuel cap and smelled. "Yup, filled her with Diesel, did'ya?"

The truck was incarcerated, and we rented a car from the Enterprise across the street then returned immediately to the Wal-Mart. I was pissed. There, I purchased a little plastic gas can -- went to the pump we used and bought a half-gallon ... of YES, DIESEL. It was obvious at that point. But the pump said "Supreme 93" ... there were 11 other cars, hondas, toyotas, etc. stalled and/or disabled around the parking lot with growing angry crowd. Some of them hadn't made it twenty feet from the pump -- and hadn't a clue what was wrong. I pointed it out to them ("Did you fill up on that pump?") and they REALLY got angry.

Some idiot had filled the high-octane underground tanks with Diesel, because some idiot had filled his GAS tanker with DIESEL and he didn't have sense enough to know it.

It cost $1,400 to get the Dodge running again.

Wal-Mart wanted to give us $800 worth of "gift cards" but I pressed for full reimbursement -- which eventually did come some months later after lawyer letters threatening litigation. A real pain in the aft.

Moral of the story: SMELL before you FILL.

[jimharvey1]

Probably the result of what we call in the transportation industry as a "cross drop". It's not that the tanker driver filled up the wrong compartment but probably because he hooked the wrong drop hose to the wrong tank when he delivered. Tankers are divided into 3 or 4 compartments. When the driver makes a delivery he hooks all the hoses up to the respective tanks, opens the valves and lets her rip. That is the cardinal sin for a tanker driver, to make a cross-drop, and is cause for IMMEDIATE termination. I just hate it for the Mercedes driver that pulls up and fills up his diesel Mercedes with a half & half mix of diesel and GAS!

A lot of people don't realize that there is no difference between the different brands of gasoline other than the additives that are added. The gas itself all goes into the tanker from the same storage tank and additives are added to make it Chevron, Texaco, Exxon, BP or whatever.

Unfortunately, the "additive" that the tanker driver mistakenly put in Wally-World's tank was "NONE OF THE ABOVE".

Another tidbit of advice...when a tanker is filling the service stations tanks, don't buy gas there. You are not getting "fresher gas" by doing so. The turbulence caused by the delivery stirs up all the settled condensation and crap that has collected in the bottom of the in-ground storage tank at the station and the filters may not catch it all. Go to another station or go back later after the fuel settles back out.

[StatRX67]

Originally Posted by tight-squeeze

Thanks for that response! Wow, we do have some knowledgable people on board don't we!

I run the V-Tek in my Honda S2000, and was warned by the Honda guy to heed the octane warnings. But then others said I shouldn't waste my money because regular was fine. I tested it and found lower mileage, less than acceptable performance, and a rather odd odor any time I got her up over 6,000 RPMs to kick in the V-Tek. Smelled like burning rags.

I took it to the Honda dealer thinking I had blown something, and he immediately siphoned some gas out -- ran it through some kind of device and said there's the problem -- bad gas. While it was "labeled" as 87, the device claimed it was 84. He said sometimes you'll get "high test" rated at 93, and it will test out at 90 or less. So he said to be aware of off-brand gas.

So, I'm not discounting the 'octane debate' ... just relating personal experience.

I'm concerned because the Tight Squeeze is now out of warranty, and the extended warranty on the Evenrude V-Teks doesn't cover 'bad gas' problems. I know those puppies are expensive to work on!

I'm assuming that the Honda is a V-tec and the Evinrudes are E-tecs? (too many tecs...) The problem that you had would certainly lead to problems if the S2000 calls for 90 plus octane, but was only getting 84. Maybe try something right around the middle like plus? Maybe you can get away with just cheating on a few octane points, at today's insane gas prices the cost of fueling your vehicle over a year can decrease greatly even by saving $0.10 a gallon if you drive enough.

As for your and Jim's post re: the Dodge diesel debacle, way back in the mid-80s in the waning days of leaded fuel there were three choices at the pump. Regular, unleaded, and diesel. When the unleaded cars came out the engineers had the foresight to make the fuel-fill opening too small for the diesel and regular nozzles . Unfortunately, the diesel nozzles would fit right into the regular fuel-fills. I was working at a local gas station at the time and it was amazing how often people would pump the wrong fuel into their vehicle.

Alluding to Jim's reply, you would think that not only cars would differentiate between fuel-fill sizes by type of fuel. Maybe the petroleum industry should too. Different gases (propane, O2, etc) that can be hazardous when crossed or mixed-up have different threaded lines/pipes. Maybe making the lines and connections unique to specific fuel types every step of the way in the refining to delivery processes wouldn't be a bad idea.

[tight-squeeze]

This is a truly EXCELLENT thread... I've learned more here than in most of the other threads I've read -- besided the "Boat Ripped Off" post...

But what about moisture?

I've just read the second article about Ethanol / Gas and boats (This was in Boating magazine) and talking about how the Ethanol actually attracts moisture. Following that...

Should "gas driers" be added to fuel?

What behavior in the engine would alert us of too much moisture in the gas?

How can we tell if Ethanol has actually been added?

Thanks for all your help

[StatRX67]

Originally Posted by tight-squeeze

This is a truly EXCELLENT thread... I've learned more here than in most of the other threads I've read -- besided the "Boat Ripped Off" post...

But what about moisture?

I've just read the second article about Ethanol / Gas and boats (This was in Boating magazine) and talking about how the Ethanol actually attracts moisture. Following that...

Should "gas driers" be added to fuel?

What behavior in the engine would alert us of too much moisture in the gas?

How can we tell if Ethanol has actually been added?

Thanks for all your help

I vote gas driers yes... But only if absolutely needed. One way to tell if water is getting from the tank to the intake it to simply d/c the fuel line at the fuel filter and drain some into a clear glass jar with a lid. Let it sit somewhere safe (!) and check it in about an hour or so. If there's an obvious separation of color/clarity you can bet for sure there's water in the fuel.

BTW I won't run a boat without a fuel/water separator, they're cheap and effective. Symptoms can also be "spotty" running in the engine; surging/racing/periodic roughness at idle, rough spots under operation with marginal water in the fuel. Severe enough presence of water and the engine will just flat out stall and you probably won't even be able to start it until the water is evacuated from the lines.

I wouldn't have a clue how to tell if ethanol was added other than to measure the octane of the fuel or run a full spectrum analysis. I'm pretty sure that would be somewhat expensive.

[Its All Good]

This is a great thread. But shouldn't it be out in the other "public" forums? I mean, if I wasn't paying attention to this region, I would surely have missed it.

Good stuff.